Discussion: WHO TRIED TO KILL FRANKIE PENTANGELI? ------------------------------------------------- The answer may seem obvious, after all Anthony Rosato, while garotting Pentangeli, said "Michael Corleone says hello." So, Michael tried to kill him, right? Not so fast! Read this email discussion between Nathan Salmon, Andy Gorjestani, Robert Keller, Paul Smietan, Michael C. Lombardo, Emmanuel Hondroulis, Matt Pomera, and myself. -- Mon, 8 Jan 1996 > Who tries to garrot Frankie? One thing that's never been clear to me is exactly how much of this is planned by Hyman Roth, and how much just happens by accident. Danny Aielo's character (Anthony Rosato) says "Michael Corleone says Hello", indicating that the hit on Pentageli was ordered by Mike. But later Mike denies that he OK'd the hit. If the hit was really ordered by Roth (as I think was the case), why does the assassin bother to pretend that Michael is behind it? After all, Pentangeli is supposed to die--what does it matter what he thinks? As it turns out, however, the attempted hit is aborted by the cop, with the result that Pentangeli thinks that Michael tried to have him killed. Roth is able to exploit this, getting Pentaneli to testify against Michael at the Senate hearings. But could Roth have instructed the Rosatos to make sure that Pentangeli thinks that Michael is having him killed, just in case it doesn't come off? That sounds far- fetched to me. I'm still quite confused about all the intrigues involved here. -- Tue, 9 Jan 1996 >>hit on Pentageli was ordered by Mike. But later Mike denies that he OK'd >>the hit. If the hit was really ordered by Roth (as I think was the case), >>why does the assassin bother to pretend that Michael is behind it? After >>I'm still quite confused about all the intrigues involved here. > >Ya'know, this has been confusing to me, too... Michael says back-and-forth >that it was Roth/Frankie Roth/Frankie to the point that I'm not sure WHO set >him up...! I don't think Michael *denied* the hit attempt on Frankie, did >he? He asked Roth if it would be "okay," and Roth said it was, as he was >"small potatoes." So, I think it *was* Michael who tried to avenge Frankie. I've always assumed it was Roth, not Michael, who tried to kill Pentangeli. My princiapl reason for this is the hotel-room argument between Michael and Roth. Michael directly confronts Roth with the question "Who killed Pentangeli?" (At this point in the story neither Michael nor we, the audience, realize that Pentangeli hasn't actually died from the attempt on his life. Michael seems to believe that Pentangeli is dead.) When Roth answers "The Rosato Bros," Michael responds "I know. But who ordered the hit? [or words to that effect] I know I didn't." This is the first time that Michael directly challenges Roth to his face, and Roth doesn't take it well. He gives Michael that speech about how he loved Moe Greene, but made no inquiries as to who had him killed. I took this as an admission that he--Roth--had Pentangeli killed, and despite Michael's apparent fondness for Pentangeli [remember here that Pentangeli is really a replacement character for Clemenza--if Richard Castellano had made himself available for GF2, it would have been Clemenza rather than Pentangeli], Roth resents Michael inquring into the identity of Pentangeli's killer. He seems to be saying something to the effect: I was fond of Moe Greene, you killed him, and I let it go; you were fond of Pentangeli, I had him killed, now you should let that go. It's not personal; it's strictly business. If I'm wrong, though, and it *was* Michael who had Pentangeli killed, none of this little hostile exchange between Michael and Roth makes much sense. [BTW: if I'm right, and it was Roth who ordered the hit on Pentangeli, it's still not clear to me whether Roth realizes at this point that Roth is actually alive and in the hands of the FBI. Everybody's talking as if Pentangeli is dead.] >It makes sense, since Michael told Frankie to lay off the Rosatos, altho >Frankie wanted them out of the picture.... If Frankie killed Michael (the >attempt "why are the drapes open?"), then Frankie could wipe out the Here again, I've always assumed that Frankie reluctantly went along with Michael's request that he lay off the Rosatos. "I want everyone to know there's not going to be any trouble from me." I've assumed that it was not Frankie, but Roth, who was behind the attempt on Michael's (and Kay's) life at Lake Tahoe. We know that Fredo inadvertently helped set it up, from Fredo's late night phone call. That call was from Johnny Ola, who is Roth's "Sicilian messenger boy." Later, in Havana, Fredo pretends to have no acquaintance with either Roth or Ola, to avoid being discovered by Michael. Also, Hagen says "It was Roth all along." I think it WAS Roth all along. Roth is the real enemy (just as the real enemy in GF1 turned out to be Barzini, not Tettaglia, and the real enemy in GF3 turns out to be, well, Altobello and Luchese, I guess). >Rosato's... The assasins fucked up, and now Frankie can *still* fuck >Michael by speaking against him at the hearing; that is, until Vincenzo was >brought it, which shows Frankie how much power Michael indeed has... On my interpretation, Frankie is prepared to testify against Michael at the hearings primarily because the FBI had him by the balls and he had no choice. That's the way Hagen presents it to Michael, and I think that's the way it was. Frankie evidently also believed that Michael was the one who ordered him killed, thanks to Danny Aiello's "Michael Corleone says Hello," and so he probably didn't feel too bad about betraying Michael at that point--until the Vincenzo business came up. In GF1, we discover that Tessio was prepared to betray Michael, while Clemenza remained loyal. Keeping in mind that Pentangeli is really Clemenza except for the casting problem with Richard Castellano, I think that character (Clemenza/Pentangeli) was still trying to remain loyal as long as he could--to the point of accepting his death sentence and even carrying it out himself, in the style of the ancient Romans who plotted against the emporor. [Michael should have let the poor guy off the hook. But no, not Michael. Anyone who betrays him, no matter how reluctantly and how honorably, must go.] >don't think Roth could care less... as he *was* small potatoes... What the >hell do we know about Pentangeli's "business"? Nada! I think it was >Michael... why else would he say "I didn't want you to know I was coming" >before the whole "In my home!" thing? At that point in the story, I think Michael doesn't know for certain whether it was Roth or Pentangeli who tried to have him killed. He pays them both a visit, to try to sniff it out. Both of them are suspects, as far as Mike is concerned. Later (on my interpretation), he will discover that it was Roth. But by then, Pentangeli had also turned traitor (in Mike's eyes), by turning state's witness. BTW: At no point are Roth and Pentangeli conspiring together against Michael. They hated each other. As I see it, Roth had it in for Michael all along. Pentangeli was loyal to Michael for as long as he could be, until he was misled into believing that Michael had turned on him and was in the hands of the FBI. Hagen: "Roth really played this one beautifully" (or something like that). I guess GF2 was even more confusing than I had originally thought. If a couple of padrinophiles like you and me can arrive at such different interpretations of the major plot, what hope is there for the average viewer? (I remember once reading a review by Roger Ebert, in which he complains about the complexity, and the unanswered questions, in Michael's story. I have to agree with him.) SO, the big question--which you should probably post on your website--is: Was it Roth or Pentangeli who tried to have Michael killed at Lake Tahoe? I'm curious what your other readers think. -- Wed, 10 Jan 1996 In response to the confusion over who ordered the hit on Michael, I believe it was Roth. Remember the scene at Roth's hotel room where Roth suspects that Fredo brought the $2 million, but Michael was still hedging on the deal. When Michael inquires as to who ordered the hit, Roth goes into a speech about his friendship with Moe Green, and his eventual fate (the bullet in the eye in part I, ordered by Michael). Though Roth said that he it wasn't important to him to find out who ordered the hit on Green, I suspect he knew it was Michael, and, out of vengeance, wanted Michael killed. What do you think? -- Wed, 10 Jan 1996 >This is all true... that's why it's so confusing... I guess Roth could have >told the Rosato's to say "Micheal Coreleone says hello"... that's possible. >And I see that Roth would benefit from Frankie being gone more; come to >think of it, I can't think of a reason (at least at this moment) for Michael >to get rid of him beyond Frankie being a threat to his deal with Roth. >Frankie was a threat to Roth's friends, the Rosato's, which could have hurt >Roth's dealings in New York; I guess. But why would Roth want Michael out >of the picture so soon after their discussions? I don't get that... Yes, I'm also puzzled by these questions. The movie is simply too sketchy with the relevant details. The more I watch it, the more convinced I am that Michael's story alone, even without the early Vito story that's intertwined, is complex enough to have been two movies. How nice it would have been if Coppola had intertwined more of the early Vito story with more detail of the Michael story! Then we'd be up to Part IV by now, waiting for Part V. Anyway, I suppose Roth was out to get both Michael and Pentangeli mostly out of greed. Maybe he had it worked out that with Michael and Pentangeli gone, he would reap all the profits from his investments in Cuba without having to share them. Or maybe he tried to kill Pentangeli as a favor to the Rosatos. Who knows? The movie gives the impression that although Pentangeli is the don of a separate crime family, his operation is still very closely tied to Michael's, at least by a bond of friendship. They are clearly allies. (Pentangeli uses the plural first-person when he says things like "Let's hit 'em now, while we've got the muscle" to Michael.) The alliance would be quite natural in any case, since Pentangeli's operation began when Clemenza broke off from the Corleones, with Vito's posthumous blessing (promised when the Don was in retirement). Here again, one should try to remember that the Pentangeli character was originally intended to be Clemenza himself, but for the casting problems with Richard Castellano. I believe that Clemenza would not have gone against Michael, out of respect to the late Don, and instead would have remained closely alligned with Michael. The character (Clemenza/Pentangeli) only goes against Michael when his back's against the wall with the Feds -- and even then, he ultimately backs down and kills himself at the order of Michael (through Hagen's visit with Pentangeli at his new barrecks/home). So if Roth was out to get Michael, he probably had better eliminate Pentangeli as well--basically for the same reason that Sollozzo would have been smart to try to kill Sonny as well as the Don. With only one of them dead, there's still the danger that the other will retaliate. Kill 'em both, and you may be in the clear. >>not Frankie, but Roth, who was behind the attempt on Michael's (and >>Kay's) life at Lake Tahoe. We know that Fredo inadvertently helped set it >>up, from Fredo's late night phone call. That call was from Johnny Ola, >>who is Roth's "Sicilian messenger boy." > >I know Fredo was dealing with Roth & Ola to some extent (we never really >know what their business was, do we?) before all this. But since Fredo >denies knowing who was on the other end of the line, ostensibly washing his >hands of Roth and Ola... why would he have *anything* to do with his >brother's murder? Why would Fredo *want* Michael killed? I don't think >even Fredo would assume that he'd take over as head of the Family :) BUT, >evidently, Fredo was killed for being a traitor. Even if there was >"something in it for [Fredo]," I still can't see him murdering his brother... Yes, I agree. That's why I say that Fredo INADVERTENTLY helped set up the attempted hit on Michael (and Kay). When Fredo speaks with Ola by phone, he complains to Ola that "You guys lied to me." And later, when Michael finally talks to Fredo after discovering that Fredo was the traitor (after Mama's funeral), Fredo tries to defend his role in the plot by saying that he didn't know it was going to be a hit, and that there was something in it for him. I believe him; he DIDN'T realize it was going to be a hit. I have no idea what he thought it was going to be. For that matter, we don't know exactly what role Fredo played. Are we supposed to think that it was Fredo who opened the drapes in Michael and Kay's bedroom at Lake Tahoe? Maybe. If so, what the hell did he think was going to happen? That Roth's hit men would merely vandalize the place, break the windows? Evidently, he believed that Roth's boys would just scare Michael a little, not really hurt him, but persuade him to be more flexible in his negotiations with Roth. Sounds incredibly naive. But, then, as Michael said to Hagen right after the attempted hit, "Fredo is weak, and he's stupid. And these are matters of life and death." >>it WAS Roth all along. Roth is the real enemy (just as the real enemy in >>GF1 turned out to be Barzini, not Tettaglia, and the real enemy in GF3 >>turns out to be, well, Altobello and Luchesse, I guess). > >Makes sense to me. But why wouldn't Frankie question his dear friend's >motive for killing him? Why, in Frankie's mind, would Michael want him >dead? What's the *exact* point of Frankie backing down once he sees his >brother? Again, I speculate. Perhaps Pentangeli thought that Michael's dealings with Roth had made Michael greedy enough to turn against Roth's enemies, including Pentangeli himself. He had already accused Michael of giving "your loyalty to a Jew [i.e. Roth] instead of your own blood [i.e. Pentangeli]." I don't recall the details of the business with Pentageli's brother. But it was something like this: Frankie had a girlfriend and an illegitimate child (maybe it was illegitimate children) in Sicily. His brother Vincenzo acted as their father and protector, as a favor to Frankie. All good-hearted stuff, and fascinating! It's in the working script. I believe Biskind explains it in his book. By producing Vincenzo at the hearings, the Corleones were reminding Frankie of the law of omerta--that if he kept his mouth shut, his loved ones in Sicily would be cared for, by Vincenzo and with the financial assistance of the Corleones, but if he sang like a canary, well, his loved ones would have to pay a price for Frankie's indescretion. But contrary to the impression left by the film, Vincenzo was in no danger whatsoever. The Corleones were not going to harm him in the slightest. It was instead the welfare of Frankie's illegitimate family in Sicily that was at stake. (Interesting stuff, isn't it?) >So Frankie kills himself on Michael's suggestion (order)... I guess it would >be a good idea for Frankie, since evidently he was STILL under 24-hour >protection AFTER the hearing... Why for life? I'd kill myself, too! :) Also, in the discussion between Hagen and Pentangeli at the barrecks, Frankie makes it clear that he would kill himself provided that his family (wife, children, and presumably, his other family in Sicily as well) would be cared for by the Corleones after his death. That, I take it, is the deal that Michael strikes with Pentangeli, through Hagen's visit. Why is it so damn important to Michael that Frankie must die? Presumably, because Frankie had betrayed Michael by turning State's evidence and going into a witness protection program. To Michael, such a violation of omerta is simply unforgivable, regardless of the circumstances. Same reason that Fredo had to go. The price for betrayal is death, regardless. -- Wed, 10 Jan 1996 >No question: Roth masterminded the unsucessful attempt to murder Pentangeli; >Michael knew nothing. Danny Aielo's character says, "Michael Corleone says >hello" for four reasons: > >1) While he's being garroted, Pentangeli will experience maximum, life- >altering trauma. Not only is his life violently ending but, simultaneously, >he will feel betrayed by his Godfather, thus adding insult to injury. Yes, this is exactly how I reacted. I think the Family, react even harsher when there is something _personal_ involved. After all, if it's business, then it isn't personal. >2) The aledged lucky (but actually insulting) c-note from Johnny Ola >foreshadowed the pending assasination attempt, and Roth's involvement. In >contrast to Michael, whose style is to simply blast opponents away, "lucky" >money is an important business/personal symbol to Roth. Recall the Havana >scenes surrounding $2 million. The c-note left a bad taste in my mouth as well. >3) Put yourself in Danny Aielo's character's (Mr. X) shoes. You're back at >Roth's place, sipping a beer, and quipping about killing an important member >of the Corleone family. The conversation would go something like this: > >Ola: "Tell 'em, X, what you said right before you whacked 'em" > >Mr. X: "I came up right behind him and screamed in his hear, 'Michael >Corleone says hello!'" > >[laughter] > >Roth: "Perfect" > Very funny! I only wish this excerpt was in the movie! You know, I felt Roth was trying to put Michael into his place when he was _telling_ him what he and his father (Vito) had done in the '20s and '30s. I felt as though Michael was subservient at that point. (Ref. Havana scene). >4) It's Copala's (Puzo's) screenplay/plot contrivance (red herring) to >temporarily confuse us, the viewer. It adds suspense and, like all good >movies, causes us to think. It has even spawned this discussion thread, >which is high praise for a great screenplay. Well said. Copala could present us with a bill. Afterall, we're not Communists. Wed, 10 Jan 1996 I see it like this. Hyman Roth wanted Frankie AND Michael dead. Frankie because he didn't like Roth's Rosato Brothers, Michael because with Michael gone, Roth could have more control in the casinos. Since Frankie's garroting was a botched attempt when the cop came in, Frankie thought Michael turned on him since one of the Rosatos said "Michael Corleone says hello". This gave Frankie a reason to turn state's evidence against Michael. Roth knew Michael would want Frankie dead in hopes that once Michael has Frankie killed for being a stool pigeon, then Roth could've had someone like Johnny Ola kill him. But, it all backfired because both Roth and Frankie were killed. I always wonder though, in II, why they never killed Willy Cici after he testified against Michael ("A buffer; the family had a lot of buffers".) at the Senate hearings. I would've thought that he would've been taken out with Roth, Fredo, and when Frankie killed himself. Oh, well. I didn't write the movie. Anyway, that's how I see it. -- Wed, 10 Jan 96 No question: Roth masterminded the unsucessful attempt to murder Pentangeli; Michael knew nothing. Danny Aielo's character says, "Michael Corleone says hello" for four reasons: 1) While he's being garroted, Pentangeli will experience maximum, life- altering trauma. Not only is his life violently ending but, simultaneously, he will feel betrayed by his Godfather, thus adding insult to injury. 2) The aledged lucky (but actually insulting) c-note from Johnny Ola foreshadowed the pending assasination attempt, and Roth's involvement. In contrast to Michael, whose style is to simply blast opponents away, "lucky" money is an important business/personal symbol to Roth. Recall the Havana scenes surrounding $2 million. 3) Put yourself in Danny Aielo's character's (Mr. X) shoes. You're back at Roth's place, sipping a beer, and quipping about killing an important member of the Corleone family. The conversation would go something like this: Ola: "Tell 'em, X, what you said right before you whacked 'em" Mr. X: "I came up right behind him and screamed in his hear, 'Michael Corleone says hello!'" [laughter] Roth: "Perfect" 4) It's Copolla's (Puzo's) screenplay/plot contrivance (red herring) to temporarily confuse us, the viewer. It adds suspense and, like all good movies, causes us to think. It has even spawned this discussion thread, which is high praise for a great screenplay. -- Wed, 10 Jan 1996 Dear Fellow Padrinophiles, Thanks for your input on this issue, which has puzzled me for years. I'm especially pleased that others agree with me that it was Roth, not Pentangeli, who was behind the attempted hit on Michael, and that it was also Roth, and not Michael, who was behind the attempted hit on Pentangeli. (Hey, Hyman. That's 0 for 2 so far! No wonder you ended up dead yourself.) Of the four reasons that were given for Danny Aiello's character's saying "Michael Corleone says Hello" to Pentangeli while attempting to kill him, all of them seem quite plausible. I don't quite get reason (2), though [the business about the hundred dollar bill being unlike Michael]. Whether or not it would be Michael's style to give his victim a small token, how is the fact that Carmine Rosato gave Pentangeli a C-note a reason for Anthony (Danny Aiello) to mislead his victim (Pentangeli) about who ordered his own hit? I don't follow that. Reason (3) seems to be more or less the same as reason (1), and that is a plausible reason--literally adding insult to injury. And reason (4) is no doubt the main reason. As a plot contrivance, it keeps the viewer wondering and guessing just who is Michael's real enemy--to the point that at least two fans of the film (Geoff Malta and me) had very different theories as to who tried to kill Michael and who tried to kill Pentangeli. -- Thu, 11 Jan 1996 As a plot contrivance, Danny Aiello's character's saying "Michael Corleone says Hello" while attempting to kill Pentageli actually works at two levels: First, it keeps the audience wondering and guessing, as was previously noted. Second, since the hit doesn't come off and Pentangeli survives the attempt, it leaves Pentangeli with the misimpression that Michael has turned on him. This is important for later developments--specifically, it plays a role in Roth's deciding to go into a witness protection program. Another possibility to bear in mind: When Michael visited Roth after the attempt on his (Michael's) life. He tells Roth that he is going to kill Pentangeli for revenge. I believe that he tells Roth this to deceive him. And at that point, it also deceives the audience--in effect, part of the same misleading plot contrivance. Suppose Michael succeeded in deceiving Roth. Roth believes Michael wrongly suspects Pentangeli and wants revenge. In that case, Roth would feel that he can go ahead and kill Pentangeli without angering Michael. Michael would not only approve; hell, he would see it as Roth doing him a favor. This might be a reason for Roth to instruct the Rosatos that the orders to kill Pentangeli came directly from Michael himself. On this theory, Roth had deceived even the Rosatos into thinking that Michael gave the go-ahead. Later when Michael confronts Roth as to "Who had Pentangeli killed?", we see that Michael did not regard his earlier conversation with Roth as giving him permission to kill Pentangeli. Roth probably realizes at that point that Michael has suspected him all along, and was lying when he said that he was going to kill Pentangeli. (Oops!) Maybe that's why he says words to the effect "If the money's there I'll know I have a partner; if it's not, I'll know I don't." Basically he's saying, OK I killed Pentangeli and you may even know now that I also tried to kill you. But I'm still willing to be your partner in this Cuba thing if you are. If you're not, I understand.Just don't take it personally. Remember that this is the business we've chosen, etc. -- Thu, 18 Jan 1996 The whole Pentangeli murder thing was engineered by Roth. The reason he said "Micheal Corleone says hello." could have been for the benefit of the bartender. Also, I am sure that Roth told the Rosato's that Michael okayed the hit. The Rosato's I am sure would not want to battle Michael Corleone. Remember Michael tells Pentangeli "Il Tuo Famiglia e' chiamo Corleone". SO attacks on Pentangeli would be attacks on Michael. Also, there is no way Michael gave the order to kill Pentangeli. He says flat out "I know I didn't give the order." Again the whole scenario is purely my intepretation and speculation. -- Sun, 21 Jan 1996 Our main puzzle about GF2 concerns the Rosatos' attempted hit on Pentangeli. There's an attempt on Michael's life (and Kay's) at the Corleone Lake Tahoe compound. We later learn that this was Roth's doing, with the partially unwitting help of Fredo (through Johnny Ola, Roth's "Sicilian messenger boy"). Michael visits Roth and accuses Pentangeli. Michael visits Pentangeli and accuses Roth. Michael clears it with Roth that he will kill Pentangeli. He tells Pentangeli to cooperate with the Rosatos so that he can get even with Roth. While Anthony Rosato is attempting to garotte Pentangeli he says "Michael Corleone says Hello." But when Michael confronts Roth in his Havana hotel room with the question "Who had Pentangeli killed?", Michael denies that he gave the order and Roth implicitly admits (though resentfully) that it was he who gave the order. Unknown to Michael, the attempted hit on Pentangeli was aborted by a cop's intrusion. Pentangeli survived, believing that Michael had betrayed him by setting him up for the hit. When Michael discovers that Pentangeli is alive and set to testify against him, Tom tells Michael "Roth engineered it ... Boy, he played this one beautifully." Exactly how much of this was Roth supposed to have engineered, and how much was his merely exploiting a fortuitous break? Did Roth intend for the Rosatos to succeed in killing Pentangeli, or only to deceive Pentangeli that Michael had betrayed him? If the former, then why did Anthony Rosato say "M.C. says Hello"? And why does Tom say that Roth "engineered" the whole thing? If the latter, did Roth actually arrange it with the Rosatos to have the cop intrude, as part of a well-scripted scam? Donald believed the latter. But Geoff and I thought that was too far-fetched. This led me to the theory, which Donald also found plausible, that Roth meant for the Rosatos to succeed in killing Pentangeli, before Michael could discover that it wasn't Pentangeli but Roth who tried to kill him at Lake Tahoe. I supposed that Roth even deceived the Rosatos that Michael had given the order, as a precaution. Hence Anthony's remark during the attempted garroting. Later Roth exploited Pentangeli's confusion, hoping to use it against Michael in the Senate hearings. This was what Tom meant when he said that Roth engineered it. Well, I've come back to Donald's original theory. In looking through the 9-24-73 working script, I found the following illuminating passage (p. 167): Hagen: Roth engineered it, Michael. He made Pentangeli think you hit him. Deliberately letting him get off alive. Then the New York detectives turned Frankie over to the FBI. My informants say he was half dead and scared stiff -- talking out loud that you had turned on him and tried to kill him. Anyway, they had him on possession, dealing in heroin, murder one and a lot more. There's no way we can get to him and you've opened yourself to five points of perjury. [By "five points", he means of course five *counts* of perjury.] These are almost exactly the lines that Robert Duvall actually says in the movie--except for the crucial line: "Deliberately letting him off alive." Hey, Robert, that was a significant omission! That missing line seems to clinch it: Roth even planned for the cop to abort the hit. And when Roth and Michael had their little hostile exchange in Roth's Havana hotel room, and Roth gave that moving speech about how much he loved Moe Greene but he let his death (at Michael's hands) go "because this is the business we've chosen," it was all pure poppycock. He knew even then that Pentangeli was still alive. (I still like my alternative theory, I have to admit. But, I'm afraid, it's wrong.) What do we think about that? -- 24 Jan 1996 I just think that such an error wouldn't be let go. Perhaps this is supposed to keep us guessing. It seems so far fetched that Roth would arrange something so far fetched. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- So, you've read this far! You're nuts! :) If you have any input on this subject, feel free to post on the Message Board or Mailing List. See the chat page for info: http://www.jgeoff.com/godfather/chat.html ciao, Geoff